US "Roundie" Color TVs in France
 

Good day Gentlemen,

I am an American living in Paris (sorry guys, not Gene Kelly).

I'm 53 and fell in love with Color in the late 50s in America.

I own a working (Yes working !) CT-100, courtesy of Terry whom you all know (Thanks! Terry; Bless his soul)

I have encouraged other friends, whose childhoold dream has also been to own a US roundie to make it come true.

So far, Me (Jerome), Wilfrid, Christopher and Jean-François have made the effort to purchase and bring overseas (5000 miles) these fine US receivers.

Please don't piss on us and greet us as fellow collectors who have the same passion as you do to preserve witnessess of past technologies & make them work again.

We use SECAM/PAL ---> NTSC standards converters, Worldwide DVD players with NTSC modulators and (in my case, full NTSC transmitters) to operate the TVs "like in America".

Gentlemen, please respect fellow collectors who are still in awe, 60 years later, that Color TV came from America 15 years before Europe. We are are a world-wide community with a common passion. Please Welcome ! us and let information flow both ways about our common interest.

Best Regards

jhalphen@dial.oleane.com
Paris/france

I agree, let's respect one another and welcome everyone who is interested in preserving these wonderful old sets and sharing information about them.

I own radios that came from Europe (some as early as the 1930s), even the USSR. Why shouldn't people from around the world own radios or TVs that came from the US?

Regards,

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

I also agree. Remember, the TV could have became an aquarium or wine cabinet and lost forever. It is much better for it to be preserved as a bit of history.

I agree and never had a problem with it. In fact i've learned alot about how the tv experience was and is from our brothers across the pond. Our passion for this hobby is universal and shouldnt be just allocated to just the U.S. The most important thing is for these tv's whether their b/w or color to be preserved for generations to come. Any information in doing so should be shared for those who want to learn and restore. I own several radio's from across the sea and have always wanted a few tv's to go along with them. Welcome Jerome!
-Tony

Hmmmmmm.... Well, anybody who loves these things enuff to try to ship a Roundie 5K miles & hope against hope it'll get there OK is OK by me..Crazy, perhaps, but ain't we all, anyway ? <grin> Get them other guys to join up-We'd LOVE to see pics of all of your collections !!

I applaud a passion for preserving vintage television wherever it occurs.

Three good 15GP22's have been successfully shipped to Europe: one in England, another in Germany, and Jerome's in France. Everyone in the loop was holding his collective breath as the CRT successfully crossed the Atlantic in a crate separate from the CT-100.:tresbon:

Could you bring us up-to-date on the equipment you use here.

Welcome Jerome. I have read your name already several times on Steve McVoy's website.

Eckhard

I'm quite certain you'd recognize him if you saw him, ISTR you both attended the Early TV Convention in 2005.

AAAAAAA! The pipe smoker! Yes, they were drooling like the rest of us at the museum's collection. :yes: To really join the club you need to also obtain a huge classic American car. :D


polaraman

That's a part of "joining the club" that I really want to do...there's a good number of early 50's Chevrolets and Cadillacs near me...unfortunately, my pocket is "not ready" to buy any of them:tears:

Hello Gentlemen,

Thank you for the kind & encouraging replies.

Yes, i was (am) the pipe smoker at ETF 2005.

I do not have a big American car (loved them seeing them in California in the late 50s & 60s). Parking in Paris is akin to living in Manhattan, and a full size sedan virtually guarantees spending 2 hours to find a suitable parking space.

To come back to vintage color TVs and answer Pete's question:
> Could you bring us up-to-date on the equipment you use here.

Gladly! As you all know, France has always adopted the strangest TV standards over & over and its SECAM color system faithfully follows the tradition. So if you want to collect TVs in this country and watch something else than a grey piece of glass, the capacity to generate other world standards is mandatory.

I come from a broadcast culture (i.e. 15 years with Ampex for instance) so i adopted a pro system approach. Sources are:

French terrestrial DVB-T
French terrestrial "L" norm SECAM
French Digital cable
UK Sky Digital (satellite)
DVD (Zone 1 & 2), S-VHS PAL, VHS PAL/SECAM

Everything goes into a matrix router.

Signal processing includes:
2 x Prosumer PAL/SECAM & vice/versa transcoders
2 x PAL/SECAM/NTSC digital standards converters

Separate DAs on all router outputs.

For NTSC transmission, i've built several transmitters over the years, but lately i've been so happy with this Greek 100mW quasi-broadcast unit, that i've standardized on this model:

http://www.aspisys.com/tvpll.htm

I initially started with their first model about 3 years ago. I chose to repackage the unit because of a few minor quirks such as "hot" running +5V & +12V regulator with no heat sinking & because of personal preferences for a metal enclosure in power RF applications rather than plastic boxes.

The newer model portrayed in the link above will actually broadcast in all current broadcast standards : NTSC "M", PAL B/G/I, SECAM L, DK...

*i have no link to this Co, other than being a satisfied customer.

I run most of my TVs daily. My philosophy is "run them & enjoy them", non-used electronics stored in boxes see the caps rot and they die.

I have a strong fetish for Panasonic TravelVision micro-TVs, especially the extraordinary 1.5" color CRT CT-101, all Trinitron models from 5" to 9", plus the CT-100 and a few others (Motorola VT-71...)

Not having much display space myself, i try to encourage others to jump onto the Real Vintage Color bandwagon, i.e. US sets.

Now a brief rundown on the status of the 4 roundies in France :

my CT-100: Works well, need to tweak the convergence with a set of new magnets received from Scott M. Will be using it with a new NTSC transmitter on the VHF low band (2-6) as it has some degree of IF disalignment on the high VHF Channel. There is NO WAY i will try to align a 7 stage "world's most difficult" IF strip.

Wilfrid's RCA CTC-9A, Blonde, 1959 is coming along well. The set has raster and the CRT had 100% emission, measured before purchase (big Thanks! to Harry P. of NJ) An NTSC modulator was received last week.
The set sorely needs a new 6DQ5 (H Out) and BTW, he is/i am interested in sourcing NOS TV tubes to have spares on hand according to the SAMS tube list.

Roundie #3 is Christopher's Zenith 5527U 21" color console 1962. The TV was in operational condition before departure from the US. A full convergence job must be performed as of course, it is shipped with the deflection yoke & convergence assy removed from the CRT neck to avoid breakage in transit.

Roundie #4 is Jean-Francois's RCA 21-CD8866 "Anderson" 1958. Condition unknown, other than complete and a rather used CRT. The set has not arrived in France yet. Jean-Francois is the curator of a beautiful mammoth vintage radio collection at the "Musee de la communication" near Angers, 200 miles out of Paris:

http://www.musee-communication.com

As he lives in the CASTLE where the collection is located (lucky guy!) he also has his own TV collection in the same location. Jean-Francois has a Predicta, Philco Safari, VT-71, in a nutshell, it's growing...

So, this pretty much sums up the status of US early color sets in France.

What amazes ME, is the amount of data, parts, knowledge and goodwill available on US early color. Early Euro color is very shrouded in secrecy. To speak of France, finding info on Henri de France (inventor of SECAM) is extremely difficult, i have only ONE picture of a SECAM prototype using an RCA 21" round tube, schematics, history, development info is near zilch, very discouraging.

Guess i will wrap this up for today after this long message. If you've read until the end, Thank You!

2 short questions:
- Would you have the HV focus transformer rewound (John Folsom Jr) on the CT-100 as preventative maintenance ?

Do any of you know something about Sony Indextron KVX-370 Beam-Index TV repairs ? 1 of my 2 Indextrons recently conked out (audio FM hiss, no scan). I have a full pdf service manual file free for the asking if someone is interested inthis set.

Pictures : Me (no pipe ;-) near CT-100
Wilfrid's Blonde RCA 1959
Christopher's 5527U 1962 Zenith
Jean-Francoi's RCA 21-CD8866 "Anderson" 1958.


Best Regards

jhalphen@dial.oleane.com
Paris/France

Many DVD players can be configured to play the DVD directly in NTSC mode (scan rate and color system). So you can avoid the jutter effects when converting PAL/SECAM to NTSC. Most program material on DVDs are film done at 24fps, so the DVD would just change the 2/3 pull-down rate to accomidate the different scan rate. (I'm assuming that the DVD was incoded at 24fps MPEG2 style).

back in the early days of NTSC color, RCA wanted everyone to start making color TVs and related equipment, and freely gave out the information. RCA would charge nominal patent licensing fees of course. But they would not make any money if they held the information back, as color TV would likely die if they did.

Looks like you need an American Football to European Football (what we call "Soccer") converter.. :D Or maybe you are converting Soccer to American Football? :D
.

Hello Jerome,

thank you very much for your detailed informations about the U.S. color roundies in France. They are very fine sets, and I am absolutely sure they are in good hands. Fixing television sets is a hobby of mine since more than thirty years, but I never saw a tv set with a round picture tube for thirty years. I heard about them but I thought that they would not exist. Therefore it was a great surprise when I realized that these roundies still exist.

You wrote about early color television in France. I am looking for a web site which shows early SECAM color tv sets. But I found nothing. Does such a site exist somewhere on the web?

Kind regards,
Eckhard

Y'all got some VERY nice ol' sets there !! You should be VERY proud...I have a '65 Zenith roundie that is still "sleeping"...Keep up the good work, & tell your old-TV buddies about us...

My 1965 Zenith roundie is still sleeping too but I'm trying to wake it up. Why don't you give yours a nudge too. What cabinet is your set in? I'd love to see some pictures of it even if it is not working. Zenith roundies are my favorite sets.

You wouldn't happen to have any spare cosmetic parts for one of these like knobs, rear CRT cap, would you?

Hello to All,

Hi to Wa2ise

you wrote: (i don't know how to use the quote feature)

"Many DVD players can be configured to play the DVD directly in NTSC mode (scan rate and color system). So you can avoid the jutter effects when converting PAL/SECAM to NTSC. Most program material on DVDs are film done at 24fps, so the DVD would just change the 2/3 pull-down rate to accomidate the different scan rate. (I'm assuming that the DVD was incoded at 24fps MPEG2 style).

back in the early days of NTSC color, RCA wanted everyone to start making color TVs and related equipment, and freely gave out the information. RCA would charge nominal patent licensing fees of course. But they would not make any money if they held the information back, as color TV would likely die if they did.

Looks like you need an American Football to European Football (what we call "Soccer") converter.. Or maybe you are converting Soccer to American Football?"

I forgot to mention that i use 2 x DVD players, one of which being permanently in "Country Code 1 USA/Canada" so i don't transcode NTSC movies. Here in France (Europe) players are sold by law as Zone 2, but most sellers will give you the machine's Dezoning code so you can make it operate on any world standard.

The 3rd machine is a Pioneer combo Laserdisk/DVD player as i have an extensive collection of LaserDisks.
For about 15 years, there was a 1 year delay between first showing of films in the US and France, so if you liked a film in the movie house you could buy a US import LaserDisk only 1 or 2 months later. Now, Zone 1 DVDs are not allowed for sale in France IF there is a planned later release in zone 2, but several shops still do "grey imports" for customers they know well and anyway you can get everything you want from mail-order houses on the Internet.

Football/soccer, er not really a fan except at World Cup time....

For Eckhard:
If there is a SECAM specialized site i do not know about it! I am currently working with a producer on a TV documentary on early color and finding anything on Henri de France & SECAM is extremely difficult. With great difficulty we found some material at INA, the state-run national archives, as we had access as professional researchers.

http://www.ina.fr

BTW, since about a year, there are a few thousand hours of vintage French TV documents online for free viewing. Over here, the success of this new service has been huge. Why not have a look at our vintage programs!

We are also in contact with a very aged gentleman who has a SECAM prototype with a US "roundie" CRT and also a prototype grid color CRT whose technology was sold to the Japanese to ultimately bear fruition as the Trinitron

See a picture of the CFT RS-153, a SECAM roundie prototype (circa 1964)
CFT stands for Compagnie Francaise de Television, Henri de France's company. It was later on absorbed by the Thomson (RCA) group.

Best Regards

jhalphen@dial.oleane.com

Stupid question-When did France get color TV?

Hi Sandy,

No question is stupid!

Official color broadcasting started on Oct 1st 1967 in 625 SECAM (system L).

There were then only 2 channels. Later on, the first program (819 lines B&W) was duplicated in 625 color on UHF. When transmitters were set up over the entire country (it took 15 years) the 819 line service was closed in 1983.

Today, like England, 99% of terrestrial analogue broadcasting is on UHF.

SECAM L is due for closure in 2012, replaced by DVD-T digital terrestrial.

Methinks political issues will push back that planned cutoff date....

Best Regards

jhalphen@dial.oleane.com

That 819 line service-that's always been kinda fascinatin' to me-wasn't it pretty much in France only? Looks like it was pretty close to being a "de-facto" HDTV system way back when...Was it ever in color, too? Sorry for all these questions...Wow did they handle having 625 & 819 systems at the same time? Was there a switch on TVs to allow viewing of both?

For a simulation of what 819 must have looked like, you could take a 1080i HDTV signal, connect the luma only, no Cr or Cb and mask off about a quarter of the vertical height and whatever horizontally to make it 4 by 3.

How was the sound carrier transmitted? FM? heard some TV sound was done via amplitude modulation. Which must sound horrible with video signal intermod and such... I suppose you could take a little (around 20 dB down) of the video signal and mix it into the audio to simulate poor reception.... :D

Hello Gentlemen,

819 on a good receiver was really breathtaking. System E gobbled up a whoping 13,75 MHz per channel and video baseband bandwith went up to 8,75 MHz.

During my childhood, i remember clearly resolving the 800 and even 850 points-per-line on the off-air test pattern (see picture) on a good receiver with wide IF bandwith. BTW, this pattern is called the "Chevaux de Marly" (horses of Marly) because of the equestrian statue pictured in the center. It was used for at least 25 years until electronic test pattern generators made it obsolete.

When the 819 service was duplicated on 625 SECAM, program origination gradually moved to 625. To continue supplying the 819 network, the ORTF made a "standards converter": a 819 B&W camera was positioned in front of a 625 monitor! needless to say, image quality really went down the drain...

Dual-standard 819/625 B&W, then color receivers were sold in quantity. The second channel was initially 625 B&W to comply with UER/EBU recommendations. This made it so much easier to exchange programs such as News stories having a unified Euro 625 standard. The second channel started broadcasting in 1964; it then went "color" in the fall of 1967.

The dual-standard requirement made French TVs much more complicated and expensive than other single standard Euro sets. The English had the same problem with the coexistence of 405 & 625.
Convergence on 819/625 color sets was a major headache! my first color TV, an ITT/Oceanic all tube set had 23 convergence adjustments!

Systems E/819 & L/625 are also unique because of the use of positive video modulation and AM sound. The sound being transmitted in the VHF & UHF bands allowed it to be wideband & quasi-FM quality. However, this caused problems later on for stereo broadcasting. In the 90s, France adopted the UK NICAM digital stereo audio system which is transmitted on a separate subcarrier. This solves the issue of hi-fi/stereo sound. Older sets only receive the "legacy" AM mono audio.

Best Regards

jhalphen@dial.oleane.com

French TV sets
 

Hi, do you have any B&W French TV sets in your collection, or know anyone who has them? I've only seem very few of them in this 7 years I am involved in this hobby of collecting vintage televisions. It looks like that they are almost as rare as true brazilian brands TV sets from the 50's . I've read, or heard somewhere that in the 50's many French people ( due to all the post-war difficulties ) couldn't afford to buy a TV set.

I would like to take a look at French TV sets from the 1950's and if possible at advertising of those sets.

Hey Captain,

Take a look at this page from Tom Genova's TV History site:
1950-1959 Other French TVs
http://www.tvhistory.tv/1950-59-Other-French-TVs.htm

-Steve D.

I've contributed to that site before ( see "Other Brazil Sets" ). The French Teleavia is a very interesting concept, amazing how people from different sides of the Atlantic can have the same idea at pratically the same time. Curious how they managed to keep stable what appears to be a heavy CRT. That TV have a very "robotic 50's" looking, it could be a good partner to Robby the Robot from the movie "Forbidden Planet" . Also, looking at the Italian sets, we can see that they had the same idea in Italy, although from the looks of it, appears that the screen of the Italian set was fixed in a single position, it looks like it couldn't turn from one side to another.

Hello Gentlemen,

Hi Captain Video,

To answer your question, i do not have really old French B&W sets. Space is REALLY at a premium in my central Paris appartment, and life is choices. I go for color.
I do of course have some small-screen Japanese sets of the 60s (Sony, Sharp) which were specially designed for the French market (819/625).

To satisfy your request, i've sifted through my extensive picture database and singled out 27 pictures which in my opinion, are the most representative of French originality in TV design. Sorry, these are not centered on the 50s, but cover all eras from about 1935 to the 60s. The pictures are sourced from fellow collector friends, E-Bay, book scans, etc. There is no possible way to keep track of credits on over 40.000 pictures, so please be forgiving and just consider that the postings are for the enjoyment of all and the advancement of historical TV knowledge. I sincerely hope that maybe some of you will find these sets original and may kindle a desire to have a few non-US vintage TVs.

I don't know if all pictures will post at one go, so if not, there will be a part II, Part III.

One last word, if the design of a particular French TV catches your fancy, the wonderful Aurora Converter/Modulator can convert 525 to 819 and make any of these TVs work.

Best Regards, Pleasant Weekend

jhalphen@dial.oleane.com

More Pictures, Part II,

Best Regards

JH

What's the story behind that TV set with the pair of CRTs? An early version of "picture-in-picture", but the 2nd picture is on teh 2nd CRT? Or maybe a form of stereoscopic TV (have polariod filters in from of both CRTs, and require special polaroid filter glasses so only the right eye sees the right CRT, and the left eye the left CRT? But you'd have to be somewhat wally-eyed to make the 2 images merge right...

That TV with two screens is really one of the most unusual things I've ever seen...in the old days, when all around the world the families had only one TV set, it was something that might become really useful: it would avoid husband/wife arguments over switching to sports or to soap opera!:D

I remember that dual screen from a thread in the last year. I've seen other 2 or 3 screen sets but I think that is the only one I recall with 2 large, equal size screens.

I like that long legged mini-console, myself.

Each of the 2 CRTs looks different. A 625 line color set and an 819 line B&W set in one cabinet?

Hello to all,

Dr Ido, you hit the nail right on the head!

The rationale behind Pizon Bros's dual-screen TV was:

A) a color CRT is expensive, so only use it when there is a program transmitted in color.

B) the color screen's dot structure and difficult convergence render a pretty mediocre picture on 819 lines so it is more logical to use a B&W CRT for 819 lines.

It is interesting to observe that what seemed perfectly logical 30 years ago, can be so puzzling today...

Best Regards

jhalphen@dial.oleane.com