Philco Roundie on going repair
 

Hello everybody, new here to the forum, I am currently trying to restore a 1965 Color Philco roundie model # P5450WA , Chassis # 16M91 , Picture Tube # 21FBP22 , Fly 277. The Flyback in the set is bad, Does anybody know where I can purchase a good replacement. I herd that one made by Thordarson is good. Also need information where I can get Capacitors to replace paper capacitors.

thanks,
Bruce

Welcome! Nice looking Philco!

Go to moyerelectronics.com. Get their email address & write them with your needs, they will reply very soon letting you know what they have. Many of us on the TV forums have bought from them & are very happy. Yes, I think in general the Thordarson flybacks are the best replacements.

Good places to find caps are radiodaze.com or justradios.com. There are a number of others. Not sure if Moyers carries the caps you need? Shouldn't be too many paper caps in that beast, I wouldn't think.

Is there a safety glass on that kine? Seems awfully light for some reason to me...

Havent seen a Philco set in 25 years. We used to have alot of them come thru our shops with fried flybacks. I do remember that much.

www.justradios.com is where we buy most of our caps. We go through a lot of caps and have found their caps to be of good quality and price.

Most of the caps in tv sets of this age I have seen are mylar or ceramic and still OK. If it has a maroon or orange case and leads coming from the bottom it is most likely mylar...have seen bad electrolytics in this age of set though.

Thanks for info everybody, the picture tube in the set is not the original tube, it was replaced in the 1970's with one that did not require a safety glass, I think not sure

Hey Bruce,

Nice Philco roundie. I believe your model 16M91 is a 1966 set. I'm a little confused. Did your Philco originally have a 21FBP22 picture tube? Or does it now have a later tube? Also the 21FB did not have a bonded faceplate and required a safety glass. Your posted picture looks to have an unbonded picture tube.

-Steve D.

The original would of been a 21FJP22. I think.

In the 70's there were rebuilders removing the bonded face and putting a metal band around the outer edge of the tube, this supposedly would prevent the glass from going everywhere in the event of breakage.
I never tested this theory.

So how was that supposed to work? If the face became shattered, then the band would then pull in on the weak outer 'side' of the tube and sort of collapse it in too, instead of just the tube's face going in by itself and bouncing right off the back and into one's face? More of a complete implosion than just the front screen. Sounds logical I guess but boy can you imagine having one of these sets and you see your 3-year-old rapping on the screen with one of his toy hammers?! Yikes!
I could believe it working more if the circumference was also wrapped in plastic taping or something so it would hold together like the cemented faceplates did. Otherwise it's still just glass shards everywhere, just more of them.

Welcome to the board!

John

On more-modern square(ish) CRTs from the 70s on, the rimband certainly seems to work if you're belting a breezeblock or hammer through the screen (mis-spent youth speaking here!) - all the glass'd stay inside the case of the TV, and the shattered remains of the shadowmask/rimband'd be in the case too:
http://www.domfjbrown.pwp.blueyonder...v_imploded.jpg

OK, so it's a b&w portable, and the glass is MORE intact than on the 25inch colour tellies we bust at school, but you get the idea. My nefarious mate Rob did that portable, and here he is again with my old monitor:
http://www.domfjbrown.pwp.blueyonder.../d_implode.jpg

Obviously the implosion protection isn't infallible:
http://www.domfjbrown.pwp.blueyonder...bbie_blood.jpg

Not big, not clever, but THAT breaking glass really IS an interesting sound... At least all the tellies that died at our hands were junker/broken modern plastic POSs...

I think the term "bonk bonk bonk BONNNNGGGGGSKLAASSSSH!" would ring a bell. Not funny!

Consider installing safety Glass
 

Check CRT and verify if safety glass should be installed. I would not trust only a metal band as safety device for an older CRT. The risk is too great not to have Safet Glass!!!!!

:sigh:

I have 2 sets using 21FBP22's and they have a safety glass that is attached around the edge of the tube so the resulting installation looks somewhat like a 21FJP22 but there is no bonding to the tube face. One of the safety glasses is etched like on a 21FPB22 and one is clear.

I know the difference in the look from the plain 21FBP22 with no glass as my CTC-10 has a 21GVP or 21GUP22 that has no attached saftety glass but it has the seperate rectangular tempered glass panel.

just looked at the tube it does have metal band

I need more help if anybody out there can help me, Just got a repy back from moyerelectronics.com about a FLY 277 and it was "I am sorry to say none of are stores have any left. good luck on your search. "

Im tempted to try a flyback off of a GE chassis, but i don't want to do that

hope someone can help

I was afraid of that. I'm looking for one, too.

On a more positive note, I believe that fly is for an rca ctc-15. It's likely that Philco was a ctc15 clone. The ctc-15 (and clones) is one of the most common roundie chassis on the planet. Your chances of finding a used one in an unrestorable set are pretty good. Dont write off any brand. You just never know what you will find a ctc15 inside. It's probably more likely than finding something else!

John

yes this seems to be an RCA clone, the philco part # (i think) is 32-10023-1 with a date code of 2746516-3

I transplanted a flyback from a ctc-15 like set which was rectangular (Hoffman) into a ctc-15 round clone (Silvertone) and it worked but the width was a little narrow. A swap from any of the ctc-15-like round sets would probably work even better, just like the original.
I think when RCA went to the ctc-16 where the rectifier tube inserts into the flyback, the clones kept with the design with the wire and cap for the 3A3.

---

your right this is a CTC-15 clone, just got off the phone with charlie, i wonder what the flyback number would be for a CTC-15, i might have one, he was away from home.

THE Philco 16M91 (SAMS set 835 folder 2) is similar to the RCA CTC-15 but not exactly a clone. The tube complement is different. Might be worth it to order up the SAMS and check for circuit/tube differences.

-Steve D.

Is anyone familiar with a FLY-227? Or did one exist? Southernguy mentioned to me that someone in the past told him that was the correct replacement. My first thought was that he meant 277 not 227... but perhaps that thought was incorrect. Unfortunately, the Sams does not show the Thordarson part number (typical). If it really is supposed to be a fly227, then perhaps we're barking up the wrong tree on this Philco. Comments?

I have one 277 left, but it is going in my CM roundie soon. The flyback went out recently with a delightful burning smell. Oh joy I am so thrilled! :no:

The Philco number goes to a Thordarson Fly 277. Fly 227 is to an airline set. It does not match a fly 277.

polaraman

Thanks for looking that up, Rich. As I suspected, that guy just gave him the wrong number by accident when he said 227.

I got a replacement flyback today fresh out of a box. The part number for my Philco is 32-10023-1. On the box of the new flyback it says TRIAD D-304 FLYBACK FOR COLOR TELEVISION REPLACES PHILCO 32-10023-1, R.C.A./ARLINE 113382, AND OTHERS. Hmm, maybe its a D-304 instead of a 277 or 227. Or is a 277 the same as a D-304. I hope the replacement will work once I get done checking over the chassis. It is built much better than the origonal thats in the set now.

My Triad book says that Thordarson FLY 277 and Triad D304 are the same. I would say that you have a winner.




polaraman

HEY MAN WASENT YOU UP AWFULL LATE AFTER DRIVING 3 HOURS. glad the flyback was the right one for you. hope the philco works out great. steve

Thanks Steve, you saved the day

@domfjbrown: I saved some old computer monituors too.
I intend to use an 1989 19" "E-Machines" monitour with "Trinitron" CRT.

Service Mode Switch
 

Ok, here is my update, The flyback has been changed out with no big issues. Seemed pretty easy, lot of sodering though. There is two before and after pics down below. I am in the process of changing a few caps. There was 2 that were leaky and another had fell apart at my figertips as I looked to see what the value would be. The chassis has since then got a good bath, all clean now :) . Replaced a few wires under the chassis. While im waiting for the caps to come in I've been checking resistors. So that brings me to my new little problem, The sevice mode switch had come apart at some point in time so I pieced it back together and resodered it back into place to the board. Seems fine, cleaned the inside contacts, switches back and forth, but when I checked R6 on the board I get a reading of 6.8ohms when the switch is in normal mode, when switched to service mode it is a dead short across R6, is that correct, I think the resistor should be like an 8K but i can't really tell what the first band is. Sams does not list this as R6 so I've got myself all confused here :worried: .

Glad you are getting it together! Your original FBT looked better than the one that is in my CTC-10C RCA right now. Thanks to the members here, I have a new replacement for my chassis. It sits here on my desk. It will be installed the next time I have an excuse to pull the chassis on my set. It's been running fairly well for about 10 years, now, being run weekly for several hours at a time.

I cant wait to see glorious NTSC color on your Philco!

Good luck with it

Bruce

That looks like an 18K resistor (first band brown, blends with the body color)

Is that a double-pole switch? You could be looking at a resistor that is part of another circuit that kills the video in service mode, not the vertical circuit that you posted. Look around the schematic for another service switch symbol.

Yes, that is a double-pole switch, thanks for the info I was looking at the part of the diagram. Everything seems to be ok with that, I thought I had bad resistor or that Id done something wrong.

Here is another picture of the advantages of rimbands on CRT's

The CRT was out of my Grundig TV & I replaced it with another one as this one was crook, So it was decided to dump the old one at the dump.

For good mesure the thing was dropped on it's neck & here is the end result, Glass everywhere as the thing colapsed on itself & I made one hell of a bang in the process.

Progress is on its way.
 

I got most of the Caps in today. Ive been replacing what I could. This set had three black beauties and was full of black plastic shell caps with "Philco" stamped on them. There all getting replaced. The Electrolytics will also be replaced in time. This set was pretty much a dead set when I brought it home. On top of the fried flyback I had no audio. The speaker made a sound that that sounded like a motor. Not the tube radio hum. Today, we have audio, loud and clear with no hum, no, motor sound. I hook the cable up to it and im getting stations. :yes: So the tuner and IF stages are working. However I did not proceed with puting the Horizontal Output tube back in to see what the picture would look like. I need a flyback cage cover for a "Philco 16M91 Chassis" do any of you guys have one. Don't think it would safe to run this set without one. Also, The tube should have a safety glass of some sort. The tube number was hand written on the back of the tube and it list 21FB22 A. A seperate rectangular tempered glass panel could easily be made to fit. Im not sure what might of been origonal to this set.

Here is where I am at so far, very little progress since October as Ive been busy with other tv projects. Fired this set up all the way on November 1st, There was no video but the color was there, picture was stable. Brightness control would have no effect. When powering off the set for a split second you would see a good NTSC picture. The "AGC Keying Sync Sep Noise Canceller" 6BH11 looked cooked. I tried another tube and got a decent picture. Powered the set up last week and here we go again with no video. Then I found the burst amp tube (6EW6) looked cooked. Replaced it with a known good 6EW6. The Video is back but the green is at full blast with retrace lines and the green screen control has no effect while blue and red seem to be uneffected. Im worried it might be the delay line but im not sure. CRT test ok. This weekend I hope to pull the chassis and take some measurements. So I'm up for sugestions.

I would look at all the tube sockets on the board especially where they solder to the traces, and the traces themselves. Heat from the tubes would cause the boards to get burnt and brittle. Also check where the circuit board is soldered to the chassis. These were sometimes used as ground points and a cold solder joint could cause all sorts of problems. You might try probing the board with an insulated tool to locate a bad joint.
Just a thought, hope it helps.

Bill R.

Maybe before you pull the chassis, take some voltage measurements at the crt socket. Avoid pin 9 (focus) becuse there is a lot of voltage there (6000v?). Note that the screens can be around 600-900v. Use appropriate caution. This could give us a lot better shot at guessing.

In some sets heater to cathode shorts in the crt can turn on one color full blast. I have never seen this in a ctc-15 like set, and I dont think it would happen because the cathodes are almost tied together. Does your CRT tester check for h-k shorts? If not, an easy way to test it would be to put a brightener on it if you have one in your junk. The most common kind of brightener for a roundie is also an isolation transformer that will "fix" h-k shorts by isolating the filament. There is a switch on top that allows you to run the filament on normal voltage (no boost). This is kind of a long shot anyway, because I think all 3 colors would be on full blast.

An open green drive control could do it I think, or an open green screen control. Unfortunately I dont have a schematic handy right now.

I'm pretty sure a delay line couldnt do this. You would either have no video, or severe ghosting I think. In any event delay lines can be replaced with a clipcord for a test, and the chroma and video will work, but not land on top of each other correctly.

Could one of the crt wires have broken loose from the chassis? This has hapenned to me more than once.

Good luck :)

John

I do know that banding increases the resistance to blows to the face, but I'm not sure if it has anything to do with containing the projectiles once it does implode. In other words, the banding creates a pre-load outward force on the face plate, so it can take a stronger blow before the net force is too strong inward and the face breaks.