Obituaries touting the death of NTSC television may be premature.
 

Here's a quote from a February 7, 2007, article on the TVPredictions.com web page speculating how the two-year-away switch to all digital over-the-air TV may be premature.

"The Digital TV transition will take place in just two years. And a recent survey by the Association of Public Television Stations says most Americans are still blissfully unaware it will happen. More scary is that viewers who get their TV signals from off-air antennas don't have any idea what's going on. (Cable and satellite viewers will likely be able to get converter boxes from their TV providers.)
If the government doesn't get serious -- and soon -- one of two things will happen:
1. Fearful that their constituents will storm the gates when they suddenly can't watch TV on February 17, 2009, Congress will be forced to extend the deadline another year or two.
2. The deadline will stay in place -- and millions of consumers will lose their TV signals.
The first option would be messy. The second one could be nasty."

I for one don't agree that the first option is 'messy.' One can only hope.

I'm one of those few people whose household gets their television off the air and yet is still aware of the change...AND DOESN'T CARE! :)

I'll still be able to watch my DVD's and laserdiscs -- so I'm happy.

The next President of the United States gets inaugurated on January 20, 2009 and then on February 17, 2009 NTSC goes dark.... The NEXT President AND Congress is going to get SLAMMED on this.... a lot off yelling about discriminating against the poor is going to get slung. Unfortunately this is a technical issue that degenerates into politics.

It might even become an election issue.

I think probably what will happen is that especially by 2009 the number of people viewing on analog sets will be relatively small...just about every old NTSC set that wears out is being replaced with a digital compatable set when people buy a new set.
Even if NTSC continues to be around indefinitely....before not too long the only people who will own NTSC sets will be old TV enthusiasts. Judging by the age of TV's discarded, the majority of junked sets are only 10-12 years old or less.

Also...satellite and cable do not use the same standards as broadcast digital TV, so what broadcast TV does will not affect viewers of those systems.

I watch only digital/HD signals from an antenna, and I don't care either! : )
I watch mostly dvds on my antique sets but if I had to of course, I would pick up a converter for OTA stuff. The bright spot is that digital signals for standard definition is so perfect and noise-free compared to NTSC off an antenna, it will be a net gain for my old sets. When I watch broadcasts on them I already use channel 3 and a vcr anyway, makes for a better more consistent picture from channel to channel and allows using the remote, a convertor would do the same.
Frenchy

Starting July 1, 2007, from what I saw in the February 2007 issue of Scientific American, Michael Antonoff (formerly of Sound & Vision) wrote that even DVD recorders must have a DTV tuner. Perfect! THAT is what I have been waiting for: a device to replace my VCR, record to DVD-RW/DVD+RW, have a DTV tuner, and have an RF output for my analog input TV.
Tom

My comment to Chad is that I have an analog only TV that is only around 3 years old and I suspect that many more people also have these. This TV will only be five at the cutoff. As I have cable and plan to get a converter (one was shown at CES this year), it will not affect me, but it will affect many people who will not be happy when their relatively new TV no longer works. It will also create a gigantic uncessary trash problem, as people will discard analog sets with several years use left in them. A good idea would be to make each HDTV dealer/manufacterer re-cycle one NTSC set for each HDTV set they sell as they are the ones making the bucks from this.

The real question is how well will this work for people who live quite a way from the broadcast station. My mother lives around 70-80 miles away from the nearest broadcast station and can get a reasonable picture using NTSC analog. Does digital broadcast work this well at long distance? With digital, it is either a perfect picture or nothing. If it is nothing for a lot of people, legislators will get an earful.

"(Cable and satellite viewers will likely be able to get converter boxes from their TV providers.)"

Right there the article is suspect. Cable and satellite viewers WILL NOT NEED a converter box beyond whatever they have presently. There will be no sudden switchover for cable and satellite viewers. They already have a box or will continue to receive cable analog signals or will get a cable digital converter box as the systems transition to digital (as many are doing now).

Also as I understand it, digital cable (and satellite) does not use the same standard as broadcast digital TV so the broadcast transition to digital is a moot point for cable/satellite users, you would just continue to use whatever convertor/receiver works with your system...also there is nothing preventing cable systems from continuing to use NTSC analog as cable is not a broadcast system.

Personally I do use mostly old analog TV's connected to a DirecTV receiver (with TV's in the barn connected to an antenna)...I am not necessarily condoning the abandonment of analog, I just wonder how much of an issue it will be with 85% or so of households using cable/satellite for TV reception.
Even the most ramshackle of shacks around here seems to have a DirecTV dish!
Also with the inclusion of digital tuners on TV accesories such as DVD/hard drive recorders this should make digital tuners/convertors more accesible. I would personally like to be able to receive and convert digital broadcast signals but have personally seen no stand-alone device to do it in a store.

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On my street there are several homes with UHF antennas on the rooftops (UHF Only Market here) and no dishes around and cable stops at my house and goes no further so I wonder how its gonna effect my neighborhood. Where are the ATSC set-top boxes that where suppose to be on store shelves by now? Seems like that was the word going around several years ago. I purchased a US Digital box from wallyworld in 2004 and it works pretty well on most channels except for PBS because they have compressed the heck out of it with multiple channels. and those boxes have since been discontinued. My plan was to get a set top box for each 'off air' channel in my area and re-modulate the signals back into analog for my older sets when the change over occurs. According to the local cable company they have no plans of getting rid of the analog NTSC line-up and that they will switching the analog local channels over to the digital feed sometime next year and that they will still remain on the current analog channel, like no change according to them but who knows, I may subscribe to the basic for the heck of it or all my sets will be set to channel 3 as my CTC 16 is now for Satellite.

video compression
 

With the newer broadcast technology, they can leave the existing analog stations on while pigging backing digital signals, I guess the only reason they will shut down analog is the original reason stated that they would sell off those frequencies to the highest bidder.

satelite tv
 

Anyone who has any of the satelite services are basically receiving digital signals converted back to analog. The question is how long will they stick with that line up.

That's precisely the reason I have not bought one: the built-in analog tuner would need a vaporware converter box on D-Day. I have a strong distaste for buying something "just for a couple of years" and then have to buy the latest and greatest to replace it, due to (obviously) planned obsolescence.

Plus, apparently there are people with money to burn, so they figure "Ooh, a new toy! Gimme!", buy an analog-tuner'd DVD recorder, and then think nothing of buying a replacement. Sorry, but money's too hard to come by in my house to toss things so easily. :D Seems half the time, what I or my family consider perfect for us isn't popular with most other folks!

Tom

Just one comment... Planned obsolescence occurs in the free-market, meaning your TV/car/toothbrush might function perfectly well, but you simply don't want to appear to be the neighborhood nutcase or cheapskate because you're watching a 1965 TV set while the rest of the world has moved on to flatscreens.

This is government mandated obsolescence, when the feds FORCE citizens to broadcast (thereby receive) in a different format at the point of a gun. In a true free-market example, both analog and digital would co-exist until broadcasters decided it was no longer cost-effective to pay the electric bill for the analog transmitter.

Peace Out.

Man, does that line ring a harmonic chord here! I suspect I may be seen as a weirdo by some acquaintances because I like the "old-fashioned" stuff that was built to last, instead of plastic junk cranked out with "planned obsolescence" in mind. [I suspect a disproportionate percentage of AKers would feel the same way.] As an American living in (98% Chinese) Hong Kong, I find a lot of things I like are unknown or unpopular here, which only adds to the feeling, and much of the popular culture here (Canto-pop songs, many movies, etc...) has no appeal to me. Very definitely not "mainstream tastes" in this household! :no: :D

You're quite correct. :yes: Point taken. Perfectly good gear being relegated to the scrap heap for someone else's agenda and potential profit..
Tom

I have almost no experience with satellite tv...how many local tv stations are available over the dish? This would seem to be a real issue to me. As others point out, the most ramshackle old mobile home out in the country has a dish these days but they are getting their local news & weather from rabbit ears, right? I can see this being a real problem for local stations, especially in rural areas where cable hits only a limited area.

As for me, I am still 100% over-the-air analog, and plan to be when the end comes. Looks like I have a couple years to find some deals on digital decoders.

At least that's ONE single thing that the public probably won't blame on President Bush.


I think what we'll see is a program of vouchers similar to the incandescent light bulb destruction programs here in Ventura County: The SoCal Edison Co has subsidized the sales of the fluorescent bulbs so that the retailers can sell them for about $1, when they actually cost about $6. They want to phase out all incandescent bulbs in a couple years, and there was an article in the LA Daily News this week about a possible law to ban incandescent bulbs in California.

So we may see TV signal converter boxes for sale at the grocery store for $9, courtesy of the taxpayers. I think I also read here or somewhere that the Feds will put out a program to give one free box to every American household. Trouble with that is that some of us have more than one TV........ Or more than 200? Oh well.

Charles

Hmmm, banning incandescent bulbs? In the words of Lee Ermey: "You gotta be S*&tting me"

Next they're going after the internal combustion engine, chewing gum and potato chips.

Its going to interesting, since I've yet to see an ATSC set-top box for sale at the box stores in the northwest.

Say, I hate to mention this. . But I buy those bulbs on sale at our local hardware store for a dollar, or two dollars at the depot all the time without any subsidy or government light bulb smashing program.

The CRT still reigns...
 

Not everyone ran out and bought a flat-screen HDTV for the Super Bowl. CRT sets easily outsold any other model, including flat-screen LCD's and (choke) plasmas.

A research group, NPD (whoever that is), reported that unit sales of CRT-based direct-view sets jumped 61 percent in the week before the game, and that includes both high-def and analog CRT sets.

The average CRT set was priced at $183, while the average flat-screen set exceeded $1000, which certainly had something to do with keeping the king on the throne for a little longer.

I REALLY hope the Feds get this one shoved up their tucchis like they did w/The Great Seatbelt Interlock Fiasco back in '74...the Imperial Federal Gummint needs to get reminded who's Boss every once in a while...Despite their best efforts to the contrary...

[QUOTE=Pete Deksnis]Not everyone ran out and bought a flat-screen HDTV for the Super Bowl. CRT sets easily outsold any other model, including flat-screen LCD's and (choke) plasmas.
QUOTE]

Just bought my girlie a 32" Sharp tube tv for her birthday to replace her little 19 incher. Just doing my part to keep the 'flame of the tube' alive ; )
It has a great picture and a nice big screen for such a low price. Ok so it was a pain lifting it up into her entertainment center but I needed the exercise anyway : ) Why should I buy a thin set at that size, the picture would suck compared to a tube, and cost 3x as much.
Frenchy

Portable analog?
 

I know we are a tiny portion of the american consumer but what about folks who have several small portable TV's form the past, like the Panasonic CT-101 and Sony indextrons and such?

Guess we're just SOL, pal. You got an Indextron? I thought Sony got all of 'em back....

I haven't heard much lately about the program to provide $40 coupons for up to two $50 ATSC set-top boxes per household lately. Supposedly, there is a program to design and build a $50 set-top box to be made available in early 2009. Only households without cable or satellite will be eligible for the $40 coupons, though, and maybe also only if they are low-income. Considering that there are already 27" CRT TVs available with built-in ATSC tuners for $250, the $50 box should be easy enough to accomplish in the next 1-2 years. (No, of course, neither that $250 TV nor the $50 boxes will be HD, just capable of converting digital signals into NTSC analog, about the same as what a low-end satellite or digital cable box does today.)

I would need to check the standard again,it has been too long, but IIRC the digital signal is supposed to include the old 4:3 525 line screen image so all the box would have to do is decode a digital signal.

Rob

Indextron
 

Not all, I have one somewhere that likes to eat it's own horizontal section, and the picture never had that bright, high contrast look of their older, larger 1970's era 5" Trinitrons. I see them on the "We print money" site every couple of months. Going for too much money, the last one I saw was for one that had a white cabinet, said it was for automotive use, and of course "untested" Right.
Richard.

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Indextrons
 

Hi Andy, We are getting off topic here, but that was the main problem, the horizontal osc. runs somewhere around 15Kcs to get three full screen sweeps for each frame (I may be off here on the Kcs, my gray matter is not what it used to be:scratch2: ) Lots of leaking caps which led to semiconducter failure, plus active matrix lcd's were coming online.

I figured Sony only actually used the Indextron in their Vidimagic 'portable' projection TV. Were there other Sony products (that were actually released) that used the Indextron tube..?

Indextron
 

Yes, the one I have (somewhere) is a black cube about six inches, direct crt view. I have not played with it in several years, as mentioned even with mil-spec replacement electrolytics it would never work for more than a couple of months with little use. Plus the new active matrix lcd's had a better(slightly) picture.

Horizontal osc in NTSC is 15,750Hz.

Rob

Doh!
 

Thank's Rob, I don't know what I was thinking. I better check my medication.:sigh:

By general agreement, digital receivers for the US system receive any picture format that is transmitted, from full high-def to standard def, and convert it to the native format of the display. The NTSC converter boxes do/will do the same for conversion to NTSC. This "all-format decode" was not implemented in Europe or anywhere using the DVB standard, so they are now stuck replacing a bunch of gear or duplicating broadcasts in order to start a HD service. A great example of European protectionism for the interests of their large industries, and let the European consumer bear the cost.

The Australian government really screwed it up, when they chose DVB under the false claim that all-format decoders would become available. It never happened, and as a result, they forced simulcasting of analog, digital HD and digital SD of the same program. I don't know if this has actually done anything to promote HDTV in Australia, or just delayed it more.

...another step in the A-to-D process:
 

"[forty dollar] converter coupons will be available beginning this January and they are expected to cover about 60-75 percent of the set-top's cost. Americans will be able to request a coupon via a toll-free number, web site, fax or by regular mail. There will be no income restrictions in applying for the coupons."

It seems even if you have cable or satellite, you're eligible for the handout, at least while the first billion is being dispersed.

Hello to all,

Richard, Andy, i am also a Sony KVX-370 Indextron collector. One has scan, no reception. The other worked 10 hours, now audio hiss, no scan. I would really like to repair them.

I have a pdf version of the full service manual. Free to anyone who wants it.
(16.2 megs, raw data).

I would like to set up a sort of task group of collectors of the KVX-370 to pool the knowledge and help each other fix his set(s).

Here are pictures of mine on the French vintage TV forum while it still worked.

http://retro-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11652

Any volunteers ?

Best Regards

jhalphen@dial.oleane.com

No 5" indextron here....
 

BUT I DO have a Vidimagic projo unit.(FP-60,IIRC) last time I tried to "light it off" it worked somewhat well. That menas that it had a pretty dim picture, albeit with decent color and such, and once in a while, would just "shut down" for no reason.

I also have the factory Sony service manual(all 200+ pages of it, in a notebook binder) for my unit!! it explains the BI system pretty well---and in my set00the index control ckty. is VERY basic, using a large number of discrete components and small chips, on a board about 5"by7" or so. The back of the tube glows green from the index phospor. it IS neat to watch in operation!!