Restoration Commences on 1947 RCA Victor 721TCS

[Penthode]

Originally Posted by kvflyer

I have a Heathkit High Voltage Power Supply, IP-17 which I have totally restored. It has voltage and current meters so it would be easy to do.

I have a working T100 that came up on all original electrolytic capacitors. But I have not turned it on for about 8-10 years though. It was rather easy to get going.

8 to 10 years off, if the capacitors were previously good, I dont think will be a problem. I think it is a problem when it has been off for 40 or more years with a sudden power up..

If you use the DC HV power supply across the B plus line to reform the capacitors, I will be interested in your results.

[Penthode]

The set has now been running faultlessly since July 2020. That is two and a half years still running on the original electrolytics. Still no sign of failure.

[kvflyer]

Great to see this update and you have given me an incentive. I have an RCA 630TS that is in excellent physical condition and has all of the parts. The GE CRT, no doubt a replacement, tests NOS. I will start with replacing the paper capacitors in the sweep sections and audio and see how the electrolytic capacitors reform. Carefully, slowly! Thanks.

[Penthode]

It has now been three years since I resuscitated this set. Recall all of the original electrolytics except for a replaced 40uFd axial lead unit are original. Most of the paper dielcetric capacitors were changed. I left a few units which were bypassed by resistors less than 100Kohm. And a few resistors which I found drifted when it affected performance. I then decided to run the set regularly and report from time to time on it's performance over the years. It is well past 1500 hours.

The set has developed two problems:
1. The original KRK2 tuner fine tuning has a bad back lash which make it difficult to fine tune. I believe it has to do with the slop in the shafte which I have to address. The second is a horizontal sync issue which causes the horiztal oscilaator phase to shift briefly and jump back. It is very momemtary and occurs rarely. Have no idea what it may be and keeping an eye on it.

But this set has been incredibly reliable and delivers a very good picture for a set which is 76 years old. Here are a few snapshots from over the air CHCH TV channel 11 this morning.

[Penthode]

Latest update on the 721TCS.

From the original 2020 restoration:

All the original can electrolytics are still fine with no problem That makes them 76 years old!

I left many of the original wax capacitors which pose no threat due to leakage. The ones I left are shunted by resistances 1M ohm or less and pose no DC threat.

Only two resistors changed asthey affected performance (horizonal plate resistor and video amp plate resistor.

An axial lead 40uF capacitor changed due to leakage.

Recent service:

KRK2 tuner fine tuning problem - slop due to wear in the brass tuning wand worn making it hard to tune for best sound (recall this is a split sound set). I made a new brass wand and attached it to the original tuning shaft disc. The repair fixed perfectly the fine tuning issue.

Horizontal jumping. the picture would jitter horizontally due to what appearred to be a time constant change in the circuit. Changed 6SN7 oscillator tube which fixed the problem.

Set remains working fine after regular 3 1/2 years use on all original electrolytic capacitors.

Here is a screen shot from this morning with the signal from an over the air signal via an ATSC set top box.

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by Penthode

...
Here is a screen shot from this morning with the signal from an over the air signal via an ATSC set top box.

Beautiful!

[kvflyer]

Originally Posted by Penthode

Latest update on the 721TCS.

From the original 2020 restoration:

All the original can electrolytics are still fine with no problem That makes them 76 years old!

Interesting.

I recently restored (But did not align) my 630TS and found that half of the original electrolytic capacitors tested good (out of circuit) for leakage; the other half were no good. I restuffed the bad ones and reconnected those testing good. I could see that those which tested good were a different manufacturer (or design or whatever, just different). Sure made things easier.

I guess they may be from the same era/manufacturer?

[Penthode]

Originally Posted by kvflyer

Interesting.

I recently restored (But did not align) my 630TS and found that half of the original electrolytic capacitors tested good (out of circuit) for leakage; the other half were no good. I restuffed the bad ones and reconnected those testing good. I could see that those which tested good were a different manufacturer (or design or whatever, just different). Sure made things easier.

I guess they may be from the same era/manufacturer?

The capacitors in this 721TS initially looked bad. But the set had been stored away and left dormant for 55 years when I bought it. I slowly reformed the capacitors over the course of four days. The key is to limit the current to just under 10mA and slowly bring up the voltage until it meets or slightly exceeds the maximum rated voltage. I would then let it sit at the maximum voltage for a few hours and notice the current continue to drop until it was no more than 200uA at maximum voltage. All of the capacitors came back that way.

However, I have a Canadian market RCA CTC5 color TV. The set was manufactured in Camden NJ and in Montreal it was modified for 25Hz power. The modification included replacing the power transformer on the main chassis with a 25 Hz filament only transformer and then adding a separate small additional chassis with a massive B supply transformer, an additional filter chole plus two Canadian mad Sprague 80uF 500v electrolytic capacitors. The main chassis had Camden installed Mallory capacitors.

When I restored the set in 2014, the Mallory capacitors reformed dielectrics were very low leakage 100uA or less. The Sprague's were close to 1mA leakage at 500v. I left them in and 8 years later one shorted and destroyed a pair of 5U4 rectifiers. I felt at the time the Sprague's were marginal. But the Malloys remain fine.

[Penthode]

It has just reached four years since the restoration. The restoration preserved all the original chassis mount electrolytics and carbon resistors. Only the paper capacitors not shunted by resistors were replaced.

Sixteen paper capacitors and an axial lead 40uFd and capacitor were replaced. Two out of tolerance were replaced with identical type carbon resistors.

The only mechanical issue was a loose worn brass fine tuning shaft which I remade and replaced. A full IF RF alignment was done.

I switch on the set regularly and it remains in excellent operating condition. The snapshots are from an off air signal this evening.

The aim of this thread was to see if the original 77 year old electrolytics would stand up to modern use. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, I took care reforming slowly the original electrolytics.

[Alex KL-1]

Impressive. And equally impressive is the lifetime of these electros!

[kvflyer]

Looks good of course. I have a 630TS that still has one half of the can electrolytics original. The other half of them were leaky and were rebuilt (stuffed). I found that the ones that are still original were manufactured by the same company; the ones that were leaky were manufactured by a different company. I don't know who the companies were, only that I could tell by construction materials, technique etc. were the same.

Thanks for sharing!

[Penthode]

That is what I found with RCA CTC5 Canadian chassis. The Camden installed Mallory's remained all good. But the Canadian Sprague capacitors mounted on the auxillary 25Hz chassis were bad and refused to reform without appreciable leakage.

Recall I spend a few days slowly reforming the capacitors after the TV sets and remained dorment and unused for many years. Most would come up fine but there are a few that will have a higher leakage. The Spragues becan with a leakage of about 1mA and that current leads to heat dissipation which propagates eventual catastrophic failure. I waited to see what would happen to the Spragues and they were warm in operation. If the capacitor is warm, it will go!

So far the 77 year old units in the 721TS still run cool after an hours operation. So my suggestion before even plugging the set in is to do an assessment and dielectric refomation to ensure leakage is 100uA or less and then give them a try.

[kvflyer]

Yes, it is interesting.

I know that it's a PITA but if there are not a lot of connections on the electrolytic capacitor, I disconnect every lead and test the capacitor for value first and leakage at the working voltage next. If it passes, I put everything back and then monitor the temperature. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

[Penthode]

Originally Posted by kvflyer

Yes, it is interesting.

I know that it's a PITA but if there are not a lot of connections on the electrolytic capacitor, I disconnect every lead and test the capacitor for value first and leakage at the working voltage next. If it passes, I put everything back and then monitor the temperature. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

When I bought this set about 6 years ago, it had sat in an attic for nearly 60 years unpowered. Apart from a mouse nest, it was a pretty clean and intact set. When I began the restoration, I decided to first evaluate the electrolytics. As it had not been powered on for many years, the filter capacitors were extremely leaky. I believe had it been powered as I found it, the capacitors would have been most likely destroyed and the rectifier destroyed.

I proceeded to reform the electrolytics by simply removing the 5U4 rectifier and with power off, connecting my Sprague TO6 supply across the B+ supply line. I limited the current to a maximum of 10mA and left the TO6 running all night. The voltage across the capacitors began to rise from less than 10 volts @ 10mA. I had taken into account any shunt resistance across the B supply and I recall removing some divider resistances.

The next morning the capacitor voltage had reached nearly 100 volts with minimal leakage. I raised the voltage and keeping maximum leakage less than 10mA. By the end of the day the total paralleled capacitor leakage was well under 1mA. I disconnected a few capacitors I could not readily access to ensure leakage was no more than 100uA at full rated voltage.

The point I am making here is that the capacitors will be destroyed unless a more gentle approach is made waking them up. I never use a variac to power up an old device. I will instead immediately look at the electrolytics and evaluate and see if they will reform. Then if the TV set dates prior to 1960, I will replace almost all the paper capacitors.

I have rebuilt a sizable number of electrolytics which will not reform. But with all 5 of my late 40's RCA Televisions, I have only replaced one chassis mount multiple section electrolytic. My CT100 had two bad chassis mount electrolytics and my CTC5 set has retained all the original electrolytics. Curiously, a 1961 CTC 11 RCA color I restored a decade ago required replacement of every chassis mount electrolytic. All but one the dielectric would not reform and the one that did suddenly failed in service. (The failure was not a short but went totally open.)

So there is no hard and fast rule. It is easy to reform the things and to test leakage and capacitance. And the experience I have had has been very good up to now.

[kvflyer]

Originally Posted by Penthode

When I bought this set about 6 years ago, ...

So there is no hard and fast rule. It is easy to reform the things and to test leakage and capacitance. And the experience I have had has been very good up to now.

And that's the key. No two are alike.